Upgrades
- Thread starter Snell
- Start date
I upgraded at 7500 miles with a D&D headers and V&H exhaust and a Thundermax tuner and air cleaner. It was the best thing I have done to my bike...it rides like a new screaming machine. Yes the Thundermax is expensive but I will never have to Dyno my bike with any new upgrades. A dyno cost 200-300 bucks...
I did the whole stage one bit at 400 miles. Every time I take the bike in for something, which isn't often, I try to get them to dyno it, but they are always 3-4 weeks out on the dyno. My butt dyno tells me it runs pretty good.
Absolutely agree with your assessment, I felt the same way when I first rode mine when my tuning specialist rolled it off the dynamometer. I kinda knew what my numbers were since I was encouraged to watch the whole process and I paid very close attention. But he insisted on me riding it before he actually handed me the 7 pages of data. Seat of the pants told me someone had stolen my bike and left me with one that had far greater performance. I was happy.
But to continue... How can one learn numbers, and in this case.. Very good numbers, without a rear wheel dynamometer giving you EXACT NUMBERS. If there is a preprogrammed unit out there that can provide accurate numbers, I bought the wrong one. My numbers increased significantly after professional "tweaking" of the preprogrammed unit (TTS Mastertune) by a seasoned, well known & respected dynamometer master. (Teaches the art to many in the industry)
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Continued...
Disregard. I got a definitive answer from someone who is in a position to know the answer.
..."It is virtually impossible to predict absolute dyno numbers without doing an accurate dyno run on a calibrated dynamometer unit. No tuning device on the planet can provide truly accurate numbers to a consumer."
Base "approximate" numbers are available. Every single Rushmore influenced 103" V-Twin produced by The Motor Company is different. Nature of the beast. Apparently some guys get Real Real good ones.
Mine is average, and I'm pleased with it. Very happy with it. It makes me smile.
My only question was,
"Is there really an upgraded ECM enhancing device out there that can give us real world numbers without investing in a professional tuner with access to... & a good working knowledge of a dynamometer?"
I simply needed a little more info on a certain piece of hardware, its available software, and how it does what it appeared to do...
Sounded good, anyway.
Thanks,
Rusty
Disregard. I got a definitive answer from someone who is in a position to know the answer.
..."It is virtually impossible to predict absolute dyno numbers without doing an accurate dyno run on a calibrated dynamometer unit. No tuning device on the planet can provide truly accurate numbers to a consumer."
Base "approximate" numbers are available. Every single Rushmore influenced 103" V-Twin produced by The Motor Company is different. Nature of the beast. Apparently some guys get Real Real good ones.
Mine is average, and I'm pleased with it. Very happy with it. It makes me smile.
My only question was,
"Is there really an upgraded ECM enhancing device out there that can give us real world numbers without investing in a professional tuner with access to... & a good working knowledge of a dynamometer?"
I simply needed a little more info on a certain piece of hardware, its available software, and how it does what it appeared to do...
Sounded good, anyway.
Thanks,
Rusty
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Snell,
Heres my response to your question. You don't "HAVE TO" break it in first. I, personally, "wanted" to break mine in "PLUS SOME". It gave me plenty of time to do diligent research. Didn't need a monster, so research was simple. Took 3 months! I decided to wait 'til the 2,000 mile mark. Broke her in per a professional engine builder's advice (he also happens to be one of my closest friends). He supervises & is directly "hands on" involved in the builds & tuning of 1,800+ hp push rod V-8's (that run on pump gas) on a daily basis.
...and he also rides a 2015 Street Glide Special.
Heres my response to your question. You don't "HAVE TO" break it in first. I, personally, "wanted" to break mine in "PLUS SOME". It gave me plenty of time to do diligent research. Didn't need a monster, so research was simple. Took 3 months! I decided to wait 'til the 2,000 mile mark. Broke her in per a professional engine builder's advice (he also happens to be one of my closest friends). He supervises & is directly "hands on" involved in the builds & tuning of 1,800+ hp push rod V-8's (that run on pump gas) on a daily basis.
...and he also rides a 2015 Street Glide Special.
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The tuners that incorporate wideband O2 sensors will give the bike a better tune than those that don't, and they adjust for real world conditions, not the still air of a dyno room. Yes, to get a sheet with the numbers requires you to put the bike on a dyno, but there are tuners out there today that don't force you to put the bike on a dyno to get the best tune. That is the difference.
Thanks Slingshot...
I'm aware of the difference and advantages and disadvantages. I have access to a qualified expert dyno guy, so I went with a less expensive but still quite reliable EFI tuning unit. I wasn't interested in losing my Delphi ECM, as it is quite a remarkable unit that actually does it's job very well with a little digital coaxing.
An "autotune" add on feature is great, but it can't hit ALL the cells in a volumetric efficiency table like a good dynamometer operator can.... Yet! ...maybe down the road. Most tuner units w/AutoTune really cannot alter the AFR, but instead hit "some" of the cells in the VE table for the particular time a unit is in autotune mode. I chose a TTS Mastertune because it's the one my "human tuner" "prefers" to work with but he said I could get whatever I wanted. It was "my call". I finally chose the TTS based on internet research, my dyno guy's input (of course), & live "bike night" discussions.
When I read a previous post, I just thought maybe there was a NEW unit out there with sensors that could actually produce "accurate" power & tq numbers that are displayed on some sort of digital read out screen device as it worked its magic, and most importantly, be able to hit "ALL" of the cells in the VE table in one ride session.
"Maybe" or "Possibly" numbers given by a "totally unbiased" manufacturer are all one has if its not dyno'd. But thats just my 11 cents worth.
Its a big world, and we have lots of choices. That's the BEST part. We are all different and make our choices for valid reasons. My research led ME in a certain direction. Someone else's research might lead THEM on a different course.
KNOWLEDGE IS KING.
*By the way... My numbers are 1 million+ HP and 1.00089 million+ FP of tq. Lol
We ALL really do what we do on our bikes to have fun.
Enjoy the ride.
Stay safe,
Rusty
I'm aware of the difference and advantages and disadvantages. I have access to a qualified expert dyno guy, so I went with a less expensive but still quite reliable EFI tuning unit. I wasn't interested in losing my Delphi ECM, as it is quite a remarkable unit that actually does it's job very well with a little digital coaxing.
An "autotune" add on feature is great, but it can't hit ALL the cells in a volumetric efficiency table like a good dynamometer operator can.... Yet! ...maybe down the road. Most tuner units w/AutoTune really cannot alter the AFR, but instead hit "some" of the cells in the VE table for the particular time a unit is in autotune mode. I chose a TTS Mastertune because it's the one my "human tuner" "prefers" to work with but he said I could get whatever I wanted. It was "my call". I finally chose the TTS based on internet research, my dyno guy's input (of course), & live "bike night" discussions.
When I read a previous post, I just thought maybe there was a NEW unit out there with sensors that could actually produce "accurate" power & tq numbers that are displayed on some sort of digital read out screen device as it worked its magic, and most importantly, be able to hit "ALL" of the cells in the VE table in one ride session.
"Maybe" or "Possibly" numbers given by a "totally unbiased" manufacturer are all one has if its not dyno'd. But thats just my 11 cents worth.
Its a big world, and we have lots of choices. That's the BEST part. We are all different and make our choices for valid reasons. My research led ME in a certain direction. Someone else's research might lead THEM on a different course.
KNOWLEDGE IS KING.
*By the way... My numbers are 1 million+ HP and 1.00089 million+ FP of tq. Lol
We ALL really do what we do on our bikes to have fun.
Enjoy the ride.
Stay safe,
Rusty
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The Dyno is only half of the equation. The other half is someone who knows how to use it. Anyone can buy a Dyno, but a good operator...like a good mechanic...is hard to find.
I don't care what the numbers are as long as it feels good and sounds good. I can tell by the sound and feel if it's too fat or too lean at a given RPM and I can adjust for that. I went with the Power Commander 5 (PCV) and used their canned tune, then tweaked it a little. It was a little lean on the bottom end.
The PCV does have an add-on auto tune module that I plan on installing. I would spend the money the dealer is going to charge for a Dyno and install a tuner with auto tune. It will give you a more accurate tune than an average person with a Dyno....unless you just want actual printed numbers to hang on the wall.
I don't care what the numbers are as long as it feels good and sounds good. I can tell by the sound and feel if it's too fat or too lean at a given RPM and I can adjust for that. I went with the Power Commander 5 (PCV) and used their canned tune, then tweaked it a little. It was a little lean on the bottom end.
The PCV does have an add-on auto tune module that I plan on installing. I would spend the money the dealer is going to charge for a Dyno and install a tuner with auto tune. It will give you a more accurate tune than an average person with a Dyno....unless you just want actual printed numbers to hang on the wall.
Also, the only thing that matters when doing a Dyno run are the before mod numbers vs the after mod numbers. My buddy had his blown RG dynoed at sturgis at 182HP. When he got home, his dealer ran it again on their Dyno and is came in at 164HP.
Either one of the Dynos is not calibrated correctly or someone doesn't know how to run a Dyno.
Either one of the Dynos is not calibrated correctly or someone doesn't know how to run a Dyno.
Good Morning RW,
Couldn't agree more. If you get a chance, Google "docs performance tuning". Do some research on "Doc's". Give me your honest unbiased opinion, please... I value guys on here like you who obviously know way more than this here rookie. Don't just check Docs site. Look around on some of the forums, then let me know if "YOU" think I did the right thing.
Thanks,
Rusty
Couldn't agree more. If you get a chance, Google "docs performance tuning". Do some research on "Doc's". Give me your honest unbiased opinion, please... I value guys on here like you who obviously know way more than this here rookie. Don't just check Docs site. Look around on some of the forums, then let me know if "YOU" think I did the right thing.
Thanks,
Rusty
Me again...
Quick story... I went to two different local dealers in my search for a good dyno guy. On one, the dyno tech. made a couple phone calls while he was dyno tuning an Ultra. I asked him, after the session if there is a phone number he calls to get the specs he needed to perform accurate tuning. He told me that he was calling his former instructor to insure he was doing a certain procedure correctly. I later found out who his former instructor was. Can you guess?
Quick story... I went to two different local dealers in my search for a good dyno guy. On one, the dyno tech. made a couple phone calls while he was dyno tuning an Ultra. I asked him, after the session if there is a phone number he calls to get the specs he needed to perform accurate tuning. He told me that he was calling his former instructor to insure he was doing a certain procedure correctly. I later found out who his former instructor was. Can you guess?
Me again...
During my hunt for a good dyno guy, I was allowed by two different dealers to observe what a rear wheel dyno tune consisted of. At one, the tech made 4 phone calls while tuning a 2014 Ultra. After the session, I asked him if he calls the motor company for specs while doing the tune. He told me he contacted his former dynamometer instructor just to insure correct procedure in one of the phases (I didn't see ANYTHING wrong with that....in fact it's probably a good practice). Any idea who he might have called? It was Doc Weaver.
During my hunt for a good dyno guy, I was allowed by two different dealers to observe what a rear wheel dyno tune consisted of. At one, the tech made 4 phone calls while tuning a 2014 Ultra. After the session, I asked him if he calls the motor company for specs while doing the tune. He told me he contacted his former dynamometer instructor just to insure correct procedure in one of the phases (I didn't see ANYTHING wrong with that....in fact it's probably a good practice). Any idea who he might have called? It was Doc Weaver.
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From his website it looks like he's got it together. Is that who did your tune? If I really had the itch to put the bike on a Dyno, I'd probably take it to Bens VTwin in KY. He's got a solid rep as a good tuner. He's one of the few pro charger recommends to tune a blown bike.
I just tweak my tune by seat of the pants, which is why I'm thinking about an auto tuned. A really accurate tune is one that is done in the conditions you ride in. A Dyno tune in a 70 degree shop at 500 ft altitude will not produce the same power at 50 degrees at 2000 ft altitude.
Hey RW,
Thanks for the reply,
Yes, Doc did my tune.
Ref the dyno room conditions...
If a competent operator hits ALL the cells in the Volumetric Efficiency table, your bike is tuned for ever changing conditions. A lot of guys don't know it, but the "Simply Amazing" Delphi ECM in our bikes auto adjusts to deal with all sorts of conditions, including air at higher altitudes...& much more.
Thanks for the reply,
Yes, Doc did my tune.
Ref the dyno room conditions...
If a competent operator hits ALL the cells in the Volumetric Efficiency table, your bike is tuned for ever changing conditions. A lot of guys don't know it, but the "Simply Amazing" Delphi ECM in our bikes auto adjusts to deal with all sorts of conditions, including air at higher altitudes...& much more.
More...
Auto tunes are cool, but no matter how much you tweak 'em, they just cannot hit every cell in the VE TABLE (Volumetric Efficiency) The Delphi ECM that The Motor Co. installs on our bikes from the factory has a (quite amazing) "auto adjust" feature built in. Any "GOOD" dynamometer Operator can use this to his advantage while tuning. The ONLY way you can alter ALL of the cells in the VE Table is via a dynamometer run ....or RUN(S). But you have to have a highly qualified Dyno Op. with a HIGH QUALITY currently calibrated dyno that also is equipped with TWO "Sniffers" for front AND rear cylinders.
Doc did a total of 15 runs with my bike. It was on the dyno for 6 hours+. He was adjusting and altering the TTS "canned for my particular upgrades" tune the whole time. By the time he was finished, he was able to extract 12.33 more HP & 16.65 more TQ from the "already excellent" canned tune. That, right there, made it well worth the dyno investment...
But most importantly, my bike runs so smooth, that it amazes me.
I can now let my clutch out at dead idle (zero throttle) and there is absolutely NO STUMBLING or HESITATION. I can then, either slowly twist it up to speed, or slam it all the way to just pass "factory" redline in every gear and it feels like a Ferrari V-12! (....and yes, I've driven one of those.) My lil' 'ol Street Glide is my fun little "sleeper" now. No cams, No head work. I never divulge my full numbers. It makes it more fun that way. Plenty fast enough.
...Besides, if I REALLY wanna' go faster, I have another little red "bagger" bike that'll do 0 to 60 in 2.9 seconds and a 10.59 in 1320 ft. on 87 octane ethanol with the saddle bags on. I live 21 minutes from Palm Beach Int'l Dragway and rarely miss a Friday night "test & tune".
If you have the time, check out harleytuner.com This is a site operated by Mike Daniels. Mike does a good bit of consulting and contract work for HARLEY-DAVIDSON MOTOR COMPANY, as well as performance oriented aftermarket companies like V & H, Rinehart, and many more. There is a terrific piece on there titled "Which tuner should I buy". I believe it even discusses AUTO-TUNE equipped tuners in a fair and balance way.
Stay safe,
Rusty
Auto tunes are cool, but no matter how much you tweak 'em, they just cannot hit every cell in the VE TABLE (Volumetric Efficiency) The Delphi ECM that The Motor Co. installs on our bikes from the factory has a (quite amazing) "auto adjust" feature built in. Any "GOOD" dynamometer Operator can use this to his advantage while tuning. The ONLY way you can alter ALL of the cells in the VE Table is via a dynamometer run ....or RUN(S). But you have to have a highly qualified Dyno Op. with a HIGH QUALITY currently calibrated dyno that also is equipped with TWO "Sniffers" for front AND rear cylinders.
Doc did a total of 15 runs with my bike. It was on the dyno for 6 hours+. He was adjusting and altering the TTS "canned for my particular upgrades" tune the whole time. By the time he was finished, he was able to extract 12.33 more HP & 16.65 more TQ from the "already excellent" canned tune. That, right there, made it well worth the dyno investment...
But most importantly, my bike runs so smooth, that it amazes me.
I can now let my clutch out at dead idle (zero throttle) and there is absolutely NO STUMBLING or HESITATION. I can then, either slowly twist it up to speed, or slam it all the way to just pass "factory" redline in every gear and it feels like a Ferrari V-12! (....and yes, I've driven one of those.) My lil' 'ol Street Glide is my fun little "sleeper" now. No cams, No head work. I never divulge my full numbers. It makes it more fun that way. Plenty fast enough.
...Besides, if I REALLY wanna' go faster, I have another little red "bagger" bike that'll do 0 to 60 in 2.9 seconds and a 10.59 in 1320 ft. on 87 octane ethanol with the saddle bags on. I live 21 minutes from Palm Beach Int'l Dragway and rarely miss a Friday night "test & tune".
If you have the time, check out harleytuner.com This is a site operated by Mike Daniels. Mike does a good bit of consulting and contract work for HARLEY-DAVIDSON MOTOR COMPANY, as well as performance oriented aftermarket companies like V & H, Rinehart, and many more. There is a terrific piece on there titled "Which tuner should I buy". I believe it even discusses AUTO-TUNE equipped tuners in a fair and balance way.
Stay safe,
Rusty
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An auto tuner adjusts for your riding conditions and RPM ranges you ride. It won't adjust for a cell at 6000 rpm if you never go there. I don't really care if the volumetric efficiency at 6000rpm is spot on if I never take it to 6000. I only care that it runs good in the envelope in which I ride.
Still not a big fan of Dyno tuning. I'll probably do it if install a blower even though pro charger says the PCV auto tuner will probably do it.
Still not a big fan of Dyno tuning. I'll probably do it if install a blower even though pro charger says the PCV auto tuner will probably do it.
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