120ST woes.... it's going in for teardown...

[Spazz]

Honestly... she runs super.... except for my oil consumption.... she is a hungry pig!

There are most likely more owners that have issues, but have never spoken up.. it's a hard pill to swallow and share with others when you invest this kind of coin.

I have been documenting my oil consumption from the first time I noticed it... which was at roughly 2200 miles.... I was a quart low... 1200 miles AFTER my 1K service... so I topped it off. ( My HD techs have been onboard with this since then )

To make a long story short... I have 7102 miles on her to date and have been burning an average of one quart or more per 1000 miles.

I pack ride... so with the weather being GREAT, lots of road time with my Brothers. I'm up front most of the time, and they can 'smell' the oil behind me and every now and then they will see a slight hint of white smoke, but not constant or frequent.

Compression check was damn near perfect and leakdown was at 5% on the rear jugs and 6% on the front. You can see oil deposits on the plugs, but not bad.

One thought was bad valve guide seals... but.... that would render a nice white cloud on each startup... that doesn't happen. The main concern is the oil wiper rings... we shall see....


I did get in contact with one other 120ST owner who bought his 2 months before I did ( May 2015 ) and he went thru 2.5 quarts in 1300 miles with only 1800 miles on his bike. He gave me a lot of insight on his issues that were quite shocking to say the least. I won't go into details on that yet, but I will see where this goes. He has 25K on his rebuilt 120ST and doesn't burn a drop now.

Another side note..... whats 'normal' operating temp? on an 85 degree day... 80mph on the freeway I'm at 255 degrees. In stop and go on a 70 degree day I actually hit 325 degrees... seems awful hot to me.... spark knock counts went thru the roof that day....

So.... I drop her off next Saturday for the teardown ( under warranty )... we shall see....

 

[hulkss]

Hi Spazz,

I just got back from riding my new 120ST for 6150 miles in 20 days. A great ride.

I ran the new motor for only an hour to break it in per: break_in_secrets

Immediately after a short warm up I began to give the motor short roll-on bursts of full throttle at 2500 - 4000 rpm. After an hour of riding around I drained the H-D mineral oil and filled with Amsoil 20W50 motorcycle synthetic engine oil. I filled to one mark below the top on the dipstick.

Five thousand miles later I was one mark above the add quart line so I added some oil. At 6000 miles I added the rest of that quart which filled it up to where I started. I am using the Screamin' Eagle 5.5 quart oil pan.

I was running the factory down-load tune the entire time at outdoor air temperatures from freezing to 102 F in South Texas. Runs perfect. I never noticed any spark knock on 91 octane (93 octane in Texas). I was running hard and fast a lot with the cruise control set as high as it goes at times (yes there is a limit). My new Avon tires are now shot from one three week ride.

I'm going to try the Dynojet Target Tune system soon.

 

[Bluebowtie]

Honestly... she runs super.... except for my oil consumption.... she is a hungry pig!

There are most likely more owners that have issues, but have never spoken up.. it's a hard pill to swallow and share with others when you invest this kind of coin.

I have been documenting my oil consumption from the first time I noticed it... which was at roughly 2200 miles.... I was a quart low... 1200 miles AFTER my 1K service... so I topped it off. ( My HD techs have been onboard with this since then )

To make a long story short... I have 7102 miles on her to date and have been burning an average of one quart or more per 1000 miles.

I pack ride... so with the weather being GREAT, lots of road time with my Brothers. I'm up front most of the time, and they can 'smell' the oil behind me and every now and then they will see a slight hint of white smoke, but not constant or frequent.

Compression check was damn near perfect and leakdown was at 5% on the rear jugs and 6% on the front. You can see oil deposits on the plugs, but not bad.

One thought was bad valve guide seals... but.... that would render a nice white cloud on each startup... that doesn't happen. The main concern is the oil wiper rings... we shall see....


I did get in contact with one other 120ST owner who bought his 2 months before I did ( May 2015 ) and he went thru 2.5 quarts in 1300 miles with only 1800 miles on his bike. He gave me a lot of insight on his issues that were quite shocking to say the least. I won't go into details on that yet, but I will see where this goes. He has 25K on his rebuilt 120ST and doesn't burn a drop now.

Another side note..... whats 'normal' operating temp? on an 85 degree day... 80mph on the freeway I'm at 255 degrees. In stop and go on a 70 degree day I actually hit 325 degrees... seems awful hot to me.... spark knock counts went thru the roof that day....

So.... I drop her off next Saturday for the teardown ( under warranty )... we shall see....

Hang in there man. It's too bad you could not if had the rebuild done while you where laid up.

I was gonna ask you what you are motoring with the PV? I have noticed some of the PIDs I can't monitor most likely because I don't have wide band O2 sensors yet.


Sent from the mobile leash

 

[Spazz]

HULKSS. ..thanks for the tips and link....and glad you had a GREAT vacation. Need to call you for a one-on-one... too much typing...lol

BBT...

As far as monitoring... I have six for main ...ET, RPM, front and rear cylinder knock count and front and rear WBO2 ratios... another screen I monitor lambs for O2's

Spark knock is prevelant above 75mph... just a slight Rollon and she starts with 1 knock in rear... then another then the front.... then they just keep counting the faster I go.

Last week did 411 miles in one day... 180 miles on way... did 90-95mph the entire trip... over 152 knocks on the rear and 174 on the front... each time I adjusted throttle for increase... it got a hit in each cylinder.... I think another AT sessions and resetting trim values may be in order.... 255 degrees ET at 90 mph for 2.5 hours.... never gets above that on the freeway

Sent from Note4 via TapaTalk

 

[hulkss]

Spark knock is prevelant above 75mph... just a slight Rollon and she starts with 1 knock in rear... then another then the front.... then they just keep counting the faster I go.

Are you running stock plug wires? I believe they are essential for the knock detection to work properly.

 

[Spazz]

HULKSS. ..thanks for the tips and link....and glad you had a GREAT vacation. Need to call you for a one-on-one... too much typing...lol

BBT...

As far as monitoring... I have six for main ...ET, RPM, front and rear cylinder knock count and front and rear WBO2 ratios... another screen I monitor lambs for O2's

Spark knock is prevelant above 75mph... just a slight Rollon and she starts with 1 knock in rear... then another then the front.... then they just keep counting the faster I go.

Last week did 411 miles in one day... 180 miles on way... did 90-95mph the entire trip... over 152 knocks on the rear and 174 on the front... each time I adjusted throttle for increase... it got a hit in each cylinder.... I think another AT sessions and resetting trim values may be in order.... 255 degrees ET at 90 mph for 2.5 hours.... never gets above that on the freeway

Sent from Note4 via TapaTalk

Yessir... was told to stay away from SE'S as well... ion sensing is not all that great in them and aftermarkets

Are you running stock plug wires? I believe they are essential for the knock detection to work properly.

Sent from Note4 via TapaTalk

 

[Grizzly24]

I can't speak specifically about the 120ST but when I used to monitor engine temps on my Power Vision, my 103 averaged around 250F on the highway in 80-90F degree temps and I have seen it above 325F in a traffic jam on a hot day. I haven't experienced any issues afterwards and I no longer monitor (something you just don't want to know lol), but next time I get caught in something like that I will make my way to an exit and wait it out with the engine off. Hope they find and fix your oil consumption problem.

 

[danoday]

I also cannot speak specifically to the 120st, but If I were trouble shooting a performance air cooled flat four with the same symptoms, at launch and at high speed sustain, I would start looking at ignition timing and would consider retarding spark, sounds like early detonation at higher RPM (higher compression), which is not uncommon for a performance motor and would be benefit greatly from MSD or Mallory type ignition/spark box.

 

[Spazz]

Very true danoday... I have reset the trims... ran fine on first trip down the freeway,but after I shut it off and restarted... back on the freeway. .. spark know returns at 75-80mph... seems lean but haven't changed the tune at all hovers around 13.3 afr at cruise

Sent from Note4 via TapaTalk

 

[hulkss]

I'm running 14.5 AFR at cruise in my 120ST with the factory spark maps. No pinging.

 

[Spazz]

I'm running 14.5 AFR at cruise in my 120ST with the factory spark maps. No pinging.

I can get 30-40 knock counts in 35 miles on the freeway my timing has got to be off

Sent from Note4 via TapaTalk

 

[danoday]

I think I would agree, the knocking at higher rpm would concern me, if your tuner believes your ign/timing is correct, then I would probably chase the valve setup. But assuming you have a good coil pack, plugs and wires, this definitely sounds like to much advanced timing.
After commenting earlier, I went on MSD website and MSD does have a performance V-twin ignition pack, I don't know anyone who has used it on a V twin, but their race car applications are awesome and easy to use. Keep us posted I'm curious to hear what the fix is. Hope it something simple.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[hulkss]

would be benefit greatly from MSD or Mallory type ignition/spark box.

Please explain the great benefit over the factory ignition controlled by the ECM??

The factory timing is controlled by Manifold Absolute Pressure and RPM. The timing is also retarded if cylinder head temperature is excessively hot.

Here is a factory spark map for the 120ST:

 

[danoday]

I didn't imply a great benefit over factory ecm settings. I agree most ecm are capable of self correcting afr and timing issues within its software parameters. With the symptoms of this motor, it would have to be determine if this is a software issue or mechanical issue. I understand the map spectrum, but as Spazz stated the knock is there, is the ecm correcting? And what is the correction? mechanically the motor is experiencing two ignitions during the compression stroke, most likely one from high heat in the cylinder and one from spark. Which one will the map correct, temperature or spark retard?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[hulkss]

The spark timing table can be edited to suit any engine build with tuning software.

When riding, timing will follow the spark table unless knock is detected by the ion-sense system. Timing will then be automatically retarded to eliminate the spark knock. By data logging adaptive knock retard events, you can adjust the timing tables as needed to preclude knock.

Detonation, and pre-ignition are completely different causes of "knock".

 

[danoday]

I agree with you Hulkss, if the software tune is accurate all should go well, but if a problem exist not define by software or sensor, your stuck. Spark voltage could also be a issue at high rpm and higher compressions. Spark knock can sometimes be corrected by plug indexing. There are several mechanical and software branches in this trouble shooting tree that need viewed.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk

 

[NGOT8R]

Spazz, has the dealership had an opportunity to diagnose the problem with your motor yet?

 

[Spazz]

Spazz, has the dealership had an opportunity to diagnose the problem with your motor yet?

Expecting a phone call today...

Sent from Note4 via TapaTalk

 

[dlsorensen]

I feel like a retard trying to understand what Hulk and Dan-o are saying

 

[Spazz]

UPDATE:

Since I am NOT a 'normal' customer to my HD dealership... I can get 'inside' info..... I LIKE THAT!

Both cylinders showed good compression at 170PSI... BUT... the front showed 20% on leakdown... so they started there...

Rings, valve guide seals are shot... scoring on walls as well ( so far )

Now... here is where the 'inside' info is worth it...

Ready?

The head looks like its been thru 100K miles...

Cylinders show scoring and you can see oil pooled up on the sides of the piston...

Exhaust valve guides show oil deposits and fresh oil....zoom in on the pic and you can see the oil really good.

This is JUST THE FRONT JUG so far.... Just got word.... REAR JUG is the same...

I will keep everyone posted on the progress....

Remember this is ONLY 7300 miles